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Post by atshed on Dec 14, 2014 15:11:38 GMT
hi to all, anyone know where I can get the correct tool for pulling off the rotor , as I have a slightly noisy starter clutch going on. (et 1100) Having looked through older threads I see that using a triple leg puller is not advised due to damage risk.
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Post by kitkatman on Dec 14, 2014 19:29:10 GMT
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Post by atshed on Dec 17, 2014 18:52:06 GMT
thanks kitkat, I managed to source one from Suzuki performance spares. mag came off nice and easy with the right tool. noise turned out to be each of the three allen bolts (rear of mag) slightly loose. which allowed them to scratch/rub against the starter gear.
will be putting them back in nice and tight with a little dab of locktite.
thankfully caught in time before any damage.
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Post by arnout on Dec 17, 2014 19:41:39 GMT
Lucky indeed..  Btw, suzuki added a pin to the starter clutch on later EFE's to take some of the side load off the 3 allen bolts..  I retro-fitted the pin to my EFE starter clutch (that didn't have one), but it's tricky to get the positon right.. Swapping the allen bolts for a heavier grade will help too, and apart from loctite some people go as far as tack welding the ends of the bolts to the inside of the rotor..! |
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Post by katana on Dec 17, 2014 20:18:15 GMT
Swapping the allen bolts for a heavier grade will help too, and apart from loctite some people go as far as tack welding the ends of the bolts to the inside of the rotor..! They are already HT screws as std - thats why they break......usually trying to crank with a flat battery and the motor kicks back. Don't weld the bolts to the rotor - it achieves nothing. Its easier to tack the starter clutch directly to the rotor then the problem goes away! |
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Post by arnout on Dec 18, 2014 1:01:51 GMT
Swapping the allen bolts for a heavier grade will help too, and apart from loctite some people go as far as tack welding the ends of the bolts to the inside of the rotor..! They are already HT screws as std - thats why they break......usually trying to crank with a flat battery and the motor kicks back. Don't weld the bolts to the rotor - it achieves nothing. Its easier to tack the starter clutch directly to the rotor then the problem goes away! Hmm..  while you may have a point with heavier grade bolts being more brittle thus snapping easier, I think atshed has just found these bolts first work themselves loose.. Only then the separated clutch rattles the bolts back and forth (especially when the engine backfires, like you describe) until they snap.. So.. I think HT/ heavier grade bolts don't stretch as much as so are less likely to work themselves loose.. Whether the stock allen bolts are HT would be something to verify.. I didn't see any such indications on the bolts when I looked at them.. But then again it is hard to find an engine that hasn't been worked on before.. Anyway.. Yes, welding the clutch housing onto the rotor would make for a more direct connection and would take the load off the bolts, but as the housing is wrapped in a thin steel sheet I think that's the only part you're actually attaching to the rotor.. (unless you're intentionally burning through it) ..In theory the housing itself would still be free to turn.. Anyway (2) the root of the problem I think is vibration that works the bolts loose over time.. (that is, some engines never seem to have had any such issues).. Once they're freed up a bit either prolonged further use and/or frequent backfiring will snap off the bolts.. I suspect that vibration from poorly balanced rotors rather than the normal engine vibration is the root cause (again why some engines are fine and others suffer a lot).. I once did a half-backed attempt to balance the rotor on my 1260, but it would be interesting to try out other rotors too and compare findings..  Anyway (3) I think Suzuki have found a perfectly good solution by introducing the extra pin on later EFE's.. Or perhaps there's somebody with such a bike that has experience to contradict this? |
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Post by atshed on Dec 18, 2014 6:43:14 GMT
bolts I believe were never tightened properly by some 2 bit outfit I used to send away crank for reconditioning. along with about 20 other bolts on the bike/engine. 850 miles and approx 20 starts shouldn't be enough to loosen . will be doing all my own work now as my brief moment of using a so called specialist has well and truly passed. if you trust your own work then do your own bolts up I recon.
however - thanks to all for the extra pointers . I shall think further about weld possibilities. although would that then mean a freshly balanced part would potentially be out again?
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Post by arnout on Dec 18, 2014 20:53:08 GMT
..I shall think further about weld possibilities. although would that then mean a freshly balanced part would potentially be out again? Yeah.. That's what crossed my mind too.. But my last post was getting a bit long already..  But even if the added weld beads would introduce imbalance the clutch housing would probably not come loose.. (There would however be nothing to stop the bolts coming out and start to and rub against the big starter gear.. But this might not happen because there's no loose clutch housing twisting the bolts back and forth.. Hmm, speculative topic this..  ) |
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Post by atshed on Dec 19, 2014 7:38:43 GMT
Think am going with locktite . With well tuned rs miks I should be ok with no serious backfiring . Don't really want any off balance - as potential knock on effects may cause more hassle than worth . The tell tale scratching sound of loose Allen bolts though will be easily recognised in the future though . Meantime - anyone have a efe starter clutch with additional pin up for grabs  |
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Post by katana on Dec 19, 2014 8:33:34 GMT
Quick point if you are worried about balance already done - if the rotor is off or moved that balance state has already been destroyed as rotor isn't keyed to the crank. Anyway 4 x 1cm beads of weld placed parallel and perpendicular to the crank throws would have little effect on balance - certainly no worse than the old mechanical advance unit hung off the other end of the crank.
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Post by atshed on Dec 19, 2014 16:47:37 GMT
good points all round I recon. thanks to all.
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Post by arnout on Dec 19, 2014 18:13:51 GMT
Sorry to keep this topic dragging on..  Just some extra comments.. With well tuned rs miks I should be ok with no serious backfiring . The RS's have nothing to do with potential backfiring (engine kicking back in reverse direction).. It is caused by the engine turning over too slow on the starter (too high compression and/or poor starter/battery/leads/relais) often coupled with too much iginition advance.. So the mixture has time to ignite well before TDC.. Meantime - anyone have a efe starter clutch with additional pin up for grabs Keep in mind EFE's have a different starter gear (due to their bigger crank end taper).. The starter clutch itself should be the same as on the older bikes apart from the pin.. Quick point if you are worried about balance already done - if the rotor is off or moved that balance state has already been destroyed as rotor isn't keyed to the crank. Rotor balance is separate from crank balance.. (Not sure if GSX roller cranks can be /are balanced at all? The rods have colour markings on them though..?) The rotor itself should be balanced because otherwise this heavy lump of steel would put enormous forces on the crank taper as it is poorly supported dangling at the end of the crank.. In drag racing rotors are known to snap off the crank and are therefore preferably removed.. Anyway 4 x 1cm beads of weld placed parallel and perpendicular to the crank throws would have little effect on balance - certainly no worse than the old mechanical advance unit hung off the other end of the crank. Yep.. If well executed the extra beads should not alter the balance much.. (double checking afterwards should confirm that).. The mechanical advance unit is much closer to the center line of the crank though so imbalance here has much less effect than bigger diameter objects.. But -as such- you may have a point although the advance unit has no effect on rotor balance I think?..  |
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Post by captain chaos on Dec 19, 2014 18:36:12 GMT
Just install an oilcooled engine and be done with it.
*hides from all the abuse coming now*
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Post by atshed on Dec 20, 2014 2:09:54 GMT
yep or I could throw in a v8 and make it into a range rover. but prefer my gsx aircooled thanks. :0)
cranks been welded ,so was balanced also.
comment on rs's was more to say that engine will be correctly tuned, just adding to the strength of a proper job.
she's not destined for the drag just yet and pretty sure never will be. however I do tend to be somewhat fussy about knowing my engine inside out.
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Post by katana on Dec 20, 2014 13:53:25 GMT
Rotor balance is separate from crank balance.. (Not sure if GSX roller cranks can be /are balanced at all? The rods have colour markings on them though..?) The rotor itself should be balanced because otherwise this heavy lump of steel would put enormous forces on the crank taper as it is poorly supported dangling at the end of the crank.. In drag racing rotors are known to snap off the crank and are therefore preferably removed.. Agreed rotor balance is different but even putting something well balanced on the end of a crank, can put it seriously out of whack as an overall assembly - if and when i've had stuff balanced in the past it's been the whole assembly. Its basically why you can't just undo the nut on a turbo centre shaft and re-tighten it as it will NEVER be in the exact same place which matters at 200,000rpm! I've been around drag motors that have snapped the ends off - all without rotors - both supported and un-supported ends, removing the rotor is nothing to do with that......its lightening the rotating mass and improving its acceleration. Even with welding and strengthening, the GS/GSX/EFE crank is pretty flexible hence why ProStockers will retire a crank after 15-20 passes max - 13k rpm just stresses them out and they won't turn those revs without a good balance! |
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Just some extra comments.. 
