Turbo GS1100 need new direction

[gsryder]

Afternoon Gents, I have been a member for a while and with the info I got from here assembled my turbo GS1100.

I originally got a ton of info from a member on here Marco. When I saw his Turbo GS I absolutly just fell in love with it and built my own.

So now a few years later I believe I have finally destroyed the trans and possibly the clutch (I havent had the stomach to look yet).

And now I want to rebuild using the experience I have gathered to make a better longer lasting engine. I believe the major components I used were really only good for around 150ish hp and I know I well exceed that after the dyno run with some of the changes I made.

This is where I need some advice here is what I currently have:

1981 GS1100
Transmission back cut with heavy duty bearings
Clutch basket with back plate heavy springs welded rivets
FBG clutch fibers
all 6 heavy springs
MTC 2 stage lock up (which is what lead to the failure finally putting all the power to the rubber)
Crank has been welded
HD cylinder studs
MTC 7.8:1 pistons
Cylinder block has been piano wired
Copper gaskets
750 oil pump gears
1150 oil filter cover
Oil cooler
1150 carbs
KKK K03 turbo

The bike has ran great for about 3 years but just never put all the power to the ground because the clutch was always slipping.
Adding the lock up this past weekend was the killer.

I know I want to go with straight gears on the crank and clutch basket and big end on the stator side, but looking for the best approach.
Find old virgin crank 1100 and have completly rebuilt, find 1150 crank...or are there better crank options to start with that I am not aware of, diferent model, year, etc.

here is the only dyno run I have done on it. Its says 10psi but actually only ran to 7.5 becasue of to much lag it was building good boost but at around 7k rpm

I changed the link pipe and it reduced the lag drasticly and it started reaching boost much earlier maybe around 4,500 - 5k rpm.



Few shots of the bike

[katana]

Throw those FBG fibres away! OEM every time and with lock-up will hold 300+hp. Personally i'd up the compression a bit to help lower rpm boost / lag. If you can find a low miler EFE crank it'd be a good start although the Katana rods are a straight swop, are still available new and are the strongest of the OEM rods. What control are you using for ignition as there is easy power here if you can accurately control advance / retard.

[gsryder]

Well you are not the first to say ditch the FBG fibers...LOL! I will definitly be doing that once I put it back together again.

The lag is acceptably sorted now, originally my link pipe was way to big from the 4 into 1 up through the swinger to the turbo I reduced the size and picked up exhaust velocity and it made all the difference in the world. I dont have a tach on it (that works) but the boost comes in if I was to guess around 4,500 or so and pulls strong up to redline....obviously it could probably be a little better...but honetly making power hasnt been an issue...just keeping it together and getting what power it has to the wheel....but duly noted for future reference!!

Most of the electrics are stock except for a upgraded Honda R/R and a electro sport stator... I slotted the signal plate and...I think I retarded it a bit...honestly I dont remember. but the coils, ignitor, fuse box, all that are stock. But it starts right up cold or hot, never hick ups coughs, or back fires, but I agree with you 100% I am sure there is some room to play with the advance / retard with a adjustable sytem.

On the crank, I literally just a few moments ago came across a big end 83 crank in excellent condition that the builder will completely check, install a straight gear, and weld all together for a very fair price. and he is one of the most reputable old suzuki builders in the US.

But that is the info I was looking for if a EFE or Katana crank would work or be a better start.

Whats your opinion on a 83 big end GS1100 crank put together properly?

I am going to approach things a little differently this time I think I am going to pick a target HP say 170 and build the engine to make 200 but dial it to 170 and leave it be, and I will slap my own hand if I try to play with the boost controller!!..lol!

[bruteforce]

Hey GSryder, good to see you're still on the game. The TurboGS is also still running although it now has a GS550 frame and an oilcooler engine.
I had the same problems with the clutch on the aircooled bike. Believe it or not, the cause is the small turbo. It boosts early and the clutch isn't spinning hard enough for the lockup to cope with the torque. I now have a kkk04 and it's still small for the bike. OEM clutchplates are the best choice indeed.
If I'd do it again I'd fit a volvo TD04-16T turbo. These boost later and make power more easily.

Greetings, Marco.

[maggotbreath]

Hey Ryder, nice to see you posting up again!

[arttu]

Hi. Some random notes:

Jun 16, 2014 17:08:50 GMT gsryder said:

Transmission back cut with heavy duty bearings

Be careful with those HD bearings. A set that I got had no rubber seals on the small bearings which means no pressure oil feed to the gears.

FBG clutch fibers

I haven't tried FBG but like others say OEM plates work fine. And EBC plates have worked fine too for me. In addition it's a good idea to check carefully flatness of the steel plates and replace/surface them if needed.

all 6 heavy springs
MTC 2 stage lock up (which is what lead to the failure finally putting all the power to the rubber)

You probably don't need heavy springs with the lock up but that's something that you will find out once you get to tuning phase.

KKK K03 turbo

Something slightly bigger would be easier on the engine...

I know I want to go with straight gears on the crank and clutch basket and big end on the stator side, but looking for the best approach.
Find old virgin crank 1100 and have completly rebuilt, find 1150 crank...or are there better crank options to start with that I am not aware of, diferent model, year, etc.

Definitely not a bad idea to get straight cut gears but the stock helical gears can handle some serious power too in street use.

The 1150 rods use 20mm wrist pins if you didn't know that already. And the primary gear has different teeth number. Otherwise there shouldn't be much difference between the 1150 cranks and big end 1100 cranks. Both will be very strong if built properly. The Katana rods are supposed to be even stronger but you shouldn't need them unless you are going to aim for +400hp or rev the engine ridiculously high.

[gsryder]

Thank you for all the input and greetings, couple of things:

I am going to be looking for a bigger turbo I would like to go with the K04 mostly because it will be a direct bolt in and no major refabrication....If I was setting a target HP of say 170ish do you think it would be acceptable?

The heavy duty bearings were indeed missing the seals on the smaller bearings and I heard 2 different stories 1 you need them and then 2 you dont need them....next time I will make sure they are in!!

Also with the heavy duty trans bearings the deep groove max load bearing directly behind the input shaft started to fail well not the bearing but the ribbon style bearing reatiner....I have seen where KTM was having this same issue on their RC4 engines and their fix was to replace with cylindrical roller bearing....anyone give any thought to this...I know you would need the reatiner C-clip but I think that could be machined into the bearing if you could not find a one. The dynamic loads are substanialy high on roller bearings and switching over to staright cut gears there will be no lateral force....they have roller bearing that meet or exceed the speed rating as well....any thoughts on erplaceing all the trans bearings with roll style instead of deep groove ball bearing?

On the clutch / Lock up, right before my transmission went out for lunch, I finally had it working almost perfectly, I tried light springs, mix heavy light, extra weight on the arms, no weight on the arms, finally with all six heavy springs .225 thousandths static spacer/washers on springs, 4 washers nut and bolt on all arms, with the air gap set at .130 thousands....it finall pulled away smooth no lurching or slipping, you could hear the arms stop clacking about half way through 1st gear, and for the first time it did not slip and hung the front tire nicely in second gear...it was rolling into third that the trans went BOOM! this was at about 12-psi.

The bike weighs 470 pounds full wet, I weigh 260 pounds (dry!), and I am running a 180 width Shinko Stealth rear tire.

[arttu]

A K04 should be fine for that power. There are several versions of the K04, smaller ones are good up to 210-230hp and larger ones maybe up to 260-280hp. Roughly.

There might be something fishy with your clutch I think my stock clutch was holding up to 160-180hp with just HD springs. Now I have a lockup, just bolt and nut on each arm and old stock springs, +260hp/230Nm. But everything in the clutch must be in good condition. Even relatively small warpage on steel plates, hub or pressure plate can cause all kind trouble.

[katana]

I wouldn't be surprised if the grabby thing is down to the plates - I got the same with Barnett plates - fine when NA but grabby as hell with turbo torque. My gixer 1186 pulls 210hp @ 10lbs with just a short screw and nyloc nut on the arms and stock springs - only 4 of them ......sometimes MORE is too much. Sometimes a little more spring weight is better for a road bike as when racing you're allowed to give the clutch more abuse....and do!
Forgot about the 18mm rod thing - sorry. Used them on a Pro Mod bike = power and rpm's but also used fettled GS1150 20mm pin rods in a big, high comp motor so would trust either.

[bruteforce]

My old aircooled 1168cc GSX turbo had about the same power as "katana" mentions, that's funny. You should be able to get 170hp with a k04 at 7-8 psi I think. I agree with Arttu that the k04 is best for street use (that's why I have it) but the 16T seems to make the engine breather better. But I'd go for the k04 too with the straight-bolt-in argument.
My GSX also had the helical gears. There is a thrustplate behind the clutch (if I remember correctly) that had grooves in it at one point. I just put a spare one in an off ya go again for another year of max abuse. You're not a dragracer so in my humble opinion a straightcut set would be unneccesary and costly. If you're going to spend so much money, you could get an oilboiler engine for less, you've cured most of the problems AND you will get better power.

[gsryder]

Jun 17, 2014 21:24:59 GMT bruteforce said:

My old aircooled 1168cc GSX turbo had about the same power as "katana" mentions, that's funny. You should be able to get 170hp with a k04 at 7-8 psi I think. I agree with Arttu that the k04 is best for street use (that's why I have it) but the 16T seems to make the engine breather better. But I'd go for the k04 too with the straight-bolt-in argument.
My GSX also had the helical gears. There is a thrustplate behind the clutch (if I remember correctly) that had grooves in it at one point. I just put a spare one in an off ya go again for another year of max abuse. You're not a dragracer so in my humble opinion a straightcut set would be unneccesary and costly. If you're going to spend so much money, you could get an oilboiler engine for less, you've cured most of the problems AND you will get better power.

Well thats good to hear on the k04, i hope one day to visit a few test and tune days, just see if i have the marbles to actually take it down the strip, i "think" i play fairly hard on the street...within in safety reason, but i know its a different game at the strip. Anyway i know i could probably stay with the helical set up and all that...but i dont really know my hp output....and three years whatever hp it is/was....it broke, so mow its time to over engineer. I am by no means rich or well off but i live right, low expenses, no big hobbies but the bikes...so to redo this any other way but right...is just wrong! I have a major pasion or this bike and own 3 others, but the gs will take top proirity over all. And dont get me wrong i love oil boilers too, i will be riding my spare tomorrow 91 gsxr1100, but the old gs just has a character or better yet a soul i just cant resist!! Thanks again for the kind replies and sound advice....as i gather parts and start putting the wrenches too her i am sure i will be back for more support....cheers!!