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Post by katana on Jan 2, 2015 16:28:55 GMT
plug leads swapped around? Could be that it's getting fuel, but firing at the wrong time. Wasted spark on a twin? - it doesn't make any difference! I'll qualify that..............if it has a single coil pack it will be wasted - if it has two coils then it won't be and the leads could be reversed!
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Post by completecaferacer on Jan 2, 2015 18:11:30 GMT
try using a remote fuel tank without a tap, just pipe to the carb (we use a header tank from a zzr1100 as a test tank) it could be the fuel tap filter blocked.i would strip & clean the carbs again as the first time may have just dislodged some particles, open the drain screws at the bottom & i bet some dirt comes out with the fuel
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buelligan
Velociraptor
Posts: 33
Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Jan 4, 2015 18:12:16 GMT
Got a couple of hours in the garage today. First thing is it's got 2 coils, so tried them with the leads swapped but that didn't help. Swilled the fuel tank out, and put in fresh fuel. (found a fuel filter and fitted that in line). Fuel tap is working, fuel flowing to the carbs, and filling the float bowls. Took the plugs out to clean and check the gap, while they were out I put my finger over the hole to check if there was any compression, there was. Set the plugs to 0.65 (manual says 0.6-0.7). Couldn't get a spark at all today, on Friday there was a spark, but probably classed as a weak one. It was also irregular but I put that down to my hands being frozen and shaking. Someone else said if there wasn't a spark, to take the plug caps off and screw the plugs directly into the HT lead just to check if there was a spark, which I did, but there still wasn't a spark. I tried some known good plugs and that didn't help either. Checked the haynes manual to see how to check the coils, got my multimeter out and tested them. Specs for primary windings were both 4.3 (specs say 3.5-4.5), but the secondary windings were 12.3 and 12.7 (specs - 23-25). My multimeter seems to be playing up a bit though, so will pop round a mates and check them again to make sure. While I was there I had a look at the general state of the wiring to the coils. It seems it's not been wired as well as I'd thought, with a few small sections joined together, and 1 of the connections has 4 wires stripped and twisted together, but no solder, and just wrapped in insulation tape. So I will have to get some new wire, heat shrink, and connectors to redo that. Really need to rewire the whole bike, but I'm not sure it'll ever work again if I try that. Has anyone got any links to somewhere I could the correct coloured wires? ie for the coils I need white and orange, and black and yellow. Part of my confusion is that there is a huge amount of red wires all for different things around the ignition and battery box. And if anyone knows of any idiot guides to wiring it'd be brilliant, I had a look at the wiring diagram in the back of the haynes manual but it still seems quite confusing, with various bits I don't have on this bike anymore. A lot of redundant lights, and the only electronic components I can see is the starter relay, just behind the engine, a reg/rec inside the battery box (seemingly a silly place, do they not need cooling air passing over them?), and a small both, something to do with the ignition, 3 wires going in from a cover on the engine, and 3 coming out and going to the coils. oh and theres a small flasher relay... *edit* If there's anyone in the area who wouldn't mind popping over to have a bit of a look over for me I'd really appreciate it, could only offer tea/coffee and biscuits, maybe some cider.... *2nd edit* Heres an example of the wiring...
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Post by kokolis on Jan 4, 2015 21:27:16 GMT
OMG get the wiring first sorted
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Post by captain chaos on Jan 5, 2015 7:10:50 GMT
OMG get the wiring first sorted before it burns down
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Post by kokolis on Jan 5, 2015 11:43:22 GMT
Haha, indeed
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Post by katana on Jan 5, 2015 19:32:42 GMT
This is about as simple a loom as you are liable to get...... Damn - not on this machine - will add later from other one. Think in terms of sub looms 1. Ignition, 2. Charging, 3. Starting, 4. Lights, 5. Indicators & Horn and it becomes a lot easier. Plenty of places to get solid colour and tracer coloured wires eg. my fav.....http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/product.php/973/16-5-amp-1mm-sq-32-0-20. 16.5A cable good for most things except main battery cable and alternator / regulator outputs.
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Post by katana on Jan 5, 2015 20:14:07 GMT
Here it is.....
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buelligan
Velociraptor
Posts: 33
Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Jan 6, 2015 1:27:25 GMT
Thanks, that's 1 of the website's I've been looking at, but somehow I managed to miss the tracer wire! Thats great thanks! Had a quick look today, and think I agree, the wiring is actually even more simple than that diagram as there aren't (to my knowledge) any temp sensors etc. TBH I think the wiring of the components and switches should be easy enough, it's the wiring of the ignition switch so that there's no drain on the battery. Plus the normal ignition switch/kill switch/starter button, was replaced by a turn key ignition on the left hand side panel.
However, I checked the coils again today, with 2 more multimeters. Slightly varying results over the 3, but essentially the primary windings are ok-ish, but the secondary windings are only reading between 12 and 13 ohms. The manual states they should read 23-25, so I think new coils are called for. I'm loathed to replace a 19 year old broken part, with another 19 year old replacement part, which would probably also be broken relatively soon. Unfortunately the only new coils I can find (unless I'm doing something wrong) are in the Netherlands, and are just over £100. Which I can't afford when I don't know if that will cure the problems or if I'd need to spend more on top of that to get it running, plus respraying etc.
So not really sure what to do at the moment, unless theres some universal coils I could use, but the only 1's I've found so far that state the ohms aren't in spec.
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Post by captain chaos on Jan 6, 2015 7:57:06 GMT
I would try with some other coils, don't have to be model specific ones, AFAIK most Suzuki coils from the '80s and '90s have the same specs.
If no luck, remove the loom and make some new wiring for the ignition system only, as simple as possible. Basically just a battery, a fuse, CDI unit, pick-up coils, and ignition coils. No starter relay and stuff, just use a car battery straight on the starter motor.
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Post by arnout on Jan 6, 2015 19:35:48 GMT
I would try with some other coils.. bladibla.. etc.. Yup.. Coils aren't that bike-specific at all.. The 250 might even run (for a while) with the current "bad" coils.. First sort out the wiring (just basic like CC said), and try to start the engine as soon as you can produce a decent enough spark.. (If indeed poor sparks: try other set of similar coils).. There's no point in investing money and time into the project until you can establish the engine is any good.. If it runs, and seems okay after a test ride, then you can start pouring money into the project..
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Post by katana on Jan 6, 2015 20:26:59 GMT
Try here for alternative coils..... www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_HT_Coils_119.html most reasonably priced. Worst case use double ended coils from a 4 cylinder bike - GSXR or Bandit for example and just use one output - coil won't mind, just insulate non used lead EXTREMELY WELL as shorting to earth causes other problems!
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buelligan
Velociraptor
Posts: 33
Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Jan 7, 2015 0:44:12 GMT
The more time I spend thinking about getting this going again, the more I'm starting to remember about it. The coils were the original suspect of the rough running and so were changed to a spare set that were in the workshop. So these aren't the original coils from the bike. I suppose it's plausible that these replacement coils were also in a bad state.
What made me remember was that the original coils had to have the HT leads extended cos they were fitted to the front of the battery box. The coils on there now are fitted to a 'temporary' bracket bolted underneath the tank. It would also explain the state of the wiring for the coils, it was only meant as a temporary trial to see if it cured the problem.
I'll try and get some wire from work and just wire up the basic ignition circuit and remove all the wiring for the lights etc and see if I can get a spark then. I have managed to find some coils on ebay though, listed as being for a GSX250, and only £13 incl P&P but they have only got 6 left.
! other thing I thought of, I think the bike has done a total of around 50,000 miles now. Would it be possible that the signal pickups, or whatever they're called, behind the cover on the engine, have worn and so are not giving a strong or consistent signal? Is there a way I can test these?
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Post by fula28 on Jan 7, 2015 9:54:33 GMT
Afraid process of elimination with these snags, try coil replacement first, then as long as H.t leads are new as well as caps ! This will eradicate any issues from this point .as for pickups just con them out with multi meter, the info should be in book if you have one. Any resistance issues here won't help the spark . I've just fitted a dyna s ignition to cafe racer and wow what a difference huge sparks and runs like a champ. By the way I have a good dual pickup for gs550 if you want to try it in yours if yours is simlar most these early bikes are. Good luck fuller.
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Post by cregnybaa on Jan 7, 2015 11:13:58 GMT
With that kind of mileage i would be doing a compression test and check valve clearances if i remember when the bikes were currant they gave probs with valves.
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