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Post by arnout on Jan 7, 2015 20:34:36 GMT
..Worst case use double ended coils from a 4 cylinder bike - GSXR or Bandit for example and just use one output - coil won't mind, just insulate non used lead EXTREMELY WELL as shorting to earth causes other problems! Sorry for nitpicking, but using "normal" double ended coils on a single plug won't work if you isolate the non used lead.. I suppose this lead will have to be earthed in order to have a current (or spark pulse) running via a closed loop.. Coils for single plug applications have the one end of the sec. coil connected either to earth or the end of the prim. coil internally.. (the latter is the case with japanese bikes, which requires a specific ICU of course) Looksee on prolly similar GS450L wiring diagramBtw.. I think you cannot swap the leads on these bikes (as was stated before) as aircooled Suzuki twins are of the 180 deg configuration type, whereas old brit twins have a 360 deg crank which does allow for a simple wasted spark ignition (1 double ended coil).. Anyway.. I did a quick search and it seems these GSX250 single lead coils are used on the GS450 -'83-'88 too, which should make the search for coils somewhat easier..
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Post by katana on Jan 8, 2015 19:08:30 GMT
That doesn't make sense! A double tower coil fires both outputs equally and together - usually to two plugs. If you don't ground one output via the plug, the other will still spark. Electrically speaking they are connected internally - a Y joint if you like, so if one is isolated the spark takes the path of least resistance to ground .... through the connected plug!
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Post by captain chaos on Jan 8, 2015 19:35:47 GMT
easy to find out. With a running engine (inline 4) pull off one plug cap, it still runs on 3 and not on 2 cilinders.
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Post by arnout on Jan 8, 2015 21:42:03 GMT
easy to find out. With a running engine (inline 4) pull off one plug cap, it still runs on 3 and not on 2 cilinders. Does it really? Here's a diagram of a double ended coil used in a wasted spark system (as is used on jap 4 cyl. in-line bikes).. Pulling a plug cap off one cylinder stops the discharge current running through the coil (and leads and plugs and earth).. So no spark on the other cylinder driven by this coil either.. So a 4-cyl engine "running on 3" is a carb (or mechanical) problem.. And "running on 2" is almost certainly an ignition issue..
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Post by captain chaos on Jan 9, 2015 7:51:11 GMT
easy to find out. With a running engine (inline 4) pull off one plug cap, it still runs on 3 and not on 2 cilinders. Does it really? can't remember on which bike exactly (as you know I fix quite a few different ones) but yes it did.
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Post by arnout on Jan 9, 2015 19:40:30 GMT
Blast.. I see my piccy noworky.. Here's another try.. So.. On a wasted spark igntion the spark pulse travels through the coil, through the lead of one cylinder, through the plug, through the cylinder head (= earth), through the plug of the second cylinder, through it's lead, and back into the coil to close the loop.. Simple and efficient saving half the parts needed otherwise.. But breaking the "loop" would affect both cylinders whereas on a more complicated system using dedicated coils only one cylinder would stop firing.. Btw.. The "wasted" bit points to the fact the sparks also happen when the piston is on the end of the exhaust stroke, so when they're not needed (wasted).. But it seems to help with burning off leftover fuel particles, so not entirely useless.. Does it really? can't remember on which bike exactly (as you know I fix quite a few different ones) but yes it did. Ah.. Well, that might very well have been one of those newfangled non-oldskool bikes with separate coils fitted on top of each plug cap.. So post '97 or so and not the wasted spark setup with the double ended (and shared) coils we're talking about here.. (although OT) Trying your experiment again on a true-skool bike (like fatty) will (dis)prove my point..
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Post by captain chaos on Jan 9, 2015 19:49:38 GMT
Not coil-on-plugs, it had real coils. I think it was a BMW flying brick but I'm not sure.
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Post by kokolis on Jan 11, 2015 8:46:37 GMT
So, which bike has wasted ignition coils, cause the bikes I ve worked on reacht as working on three and dont work on two, I just remember, car engines also
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Post by katana on Jan 11, 2015 12:11:22 GMT
Pretty much every dual tower coil is wasted spark......sometimes science isn't proven by what actually happens in real life! LOL
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Post by arnout on Jan 12, 2015 1:03:22 GMT
Pretty much every dual tower coil is wasted spark.... Yup.. Right.. Another effort to explain further.. The spark plugs are wired in series on a wasted spark dual/double ignition coil.. Remember those old style Christmas lights? If only one bulb was broken or loose the whole string of lights wouldn't light up.. Same idea with the spark plugs on one double ended ignition coil.. With a broken contact somewhere (missing plug or loose/broken lead) there's no way the spark pulse can travel through just the one remaining plug and still produce a spark.. UNLESS.. ..It is accidentally arcing out somewhere.. Even from a loose plug cap a spark could jump across to the engine or frame if held close enough, but arcing directly from one coil end to the frame also happens with bad lead connections.. Arcing to ground or to the primary winding can also happen inside the coil if it's faulty.. Right.. As an extra here's a nice video for y'all to looksee, 'kay? It's a bit longwinded but very informative none the less.. Oh there's a part 2 too.. (tutu?) oss-popcorn
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buelligan
Velociraptor
Posts: 33
Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Jan 12, 2015 15:46:28 GMT
Right sorry for the lack of response for the last week or so, wife's not been, had to take her to hospital. So had to look after her and my son, I did still manage to get a little time in the garage though.
I decided I'd remove all unnecessary wiring (lights, etc.) but while doing this the look pretty much fell apart, so I've taken everything off now, except the bits hardwired to components, (switchgear, signal pickups etc...). So now I'm in need of wiring the ignition circuit again. The thinnest wire, soldered onto the outside of the starter relay was half hanging off, and is not completely off. Not sure I can clean it up to solder a new wire to it or if I'll need a new relay now. It will have to wait until next month now anyway, as I've got about 50m of blue wire, but no other colours, so as soon as I get paid I'll order wire, connectors, sleeving, heatshrink etc.
I'm unsure what connectors to use, I've seen a kit of various connector types (spades, bullets, rings) for around £20, but there's also waterproof multiconnectors, but they're a lot more expensive. Maybe get the multis for the headlight and switchgear, then use bullets for coils and indicators etc?
Thanks to the person who offered to lend me some coils, but the 1's I have have failed the bench tests so will need replacing anyway, so I'll order new coils on payday as well. But thanks for the offer, very much appreciated.
Now its time for a couple more silly questions:
Firstly, using a multimeter, what setting do I have to put it on to check for breaks in wiring? Put 1 probe on 1 end, other on the other end, but what setting, and what numbers am I looking for?
2nd, has anyone here ever completely rewired a bike? I'm trying to guess how much wire I'll need, but I keep arguing with myself, 50 meters of wiring sounds a huge amount for a small bike that hasn't even got any type of sensors on it. But that's only an average of 2 metres per colour, which doesn't seem a lot to go to all the different components?
Thanks.
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Post by katana on Jan 12, 2015 20:16:03 GMT
If you want the simple loom (as the diagram) Then 5m of trailer cable will do it with some spare for paired runs. Or buy a complete loom from a Bandit say, - plenty of spare wire and all colour codes are correct! And yes I've rewired my bikes - the Z1000J with suzuki motor and Kwack switchgear was the most extensive but adding EFI to my 1100M turbo required a separate loom in tandem with the stock one...........piece of piss! LOL
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Post by arnout on Jan 12, 2015 21:04:56 GMT
buelligan, sorry for cluttering up your topic.. Good to hear you're picking up the project despite the wife's health troubles and lack of funds.. Anyway.. ..The thinnest wire, soldered onto the outside of the starter relay was half hanging off, and is not completely off. Not sure I can clean it up to solder a new wire to it or if I'll need a new relay now. It will have to wait until next month now anyway, as I've got about 50m of blue wire, but no other colours, so as soon as I get paid I'll order wire, connectors, sleeving, heatshrink etc. Hmm.. I don't think you need to wait until you have money to splash on new parts.. I do think you need to first get the engine running (by whatever means) to determine whether the project is worth time and money at all.. If the engine turns out bad you can just stop it there, if it seems fine (power/shifting/oilconsumption/etc) you know your future investments will be worth it.. You don't need to make a tidy new loom and buy new relay in order to get the engine ready to fire.. Just use what you've got to solder up a makeshift loom.. And a starter relay is a common part and is just a heavy switch (you might even do without for crude trial purposes).. But.. Ordering some new wire (thin wall with correct colour) should be feasible on the tiniest of budgets because it is relatively cheap, especially compared to block connectors and such.. (with soldering up all connections you don't need block connectors anymore, or at least for now..) 2nd, has anyone here ever completely rewired a bike? I'm trying to guess how much wire I'll need, but I keep arguing with myself, 50 meters of wiring sounds a huge amount for a small bike that hasn't even got any type of sensors on it. But that's only an average of 2 metres per colour, which doesn't seem a lot to go to all the different components? Yup.. made my own loom on the Kat using a minimal amount of block connenctors and using smallest diameter wire where possible to make it really compact.. Yup.. 2 metres per colour on average sounds right, but there's a lot more from some colours (esp b/w) than others.. And there are a lot of different colours.. Use non-sticky pvc tape to wrap the final loom as it doesn't make a mess and allows easy access for mods/repairs (do use sticky-tape at the ends to prevent unraveling).. But.. As I wrote before I'd use a temporarily loom to first see if making a new tidy loom is even worth the effort.. Firstly, using a multimeter, what setting do I have to put it on to check for breaks in wiring? Put 1 probe on 1 end, other on the other end, but what setting, and what numbers am I looking for Well.. Mostly you're just "checking for continuity".. So like you say checking if there are no breaks in the wires by reading the resistance between two points from your multimeter.. Most meters have a nice continuity setting for that where a beep will be sounded when no or very little resistance is measured (so "open circuit" and good wire).. Here's a tut for dummies..
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buelligan
Velociraptor
Posts: 33
Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Jan 24, 2015 22:29:26 GMT
Not a lot else has happened to this, my wife is about ready to pop with our 2nd son, so I've had to spend time trying to empty the 'study' and put up the cot and all the associated crap that goes with a baby... Also had to finally sort the Dragstar for my dad so I can get it MOT'd and ride it down to him in Bristol in a few weeks. Will be a cold ride on a bike that's not been on the road for about 6 years!
Anyway, payday has arrived, a new multi meter has been ordered, as well as a soldering iron, and 50 metres of blue wire liberated from work to make an ignition circuit just to try and get the engine running.
I've priced up multi connectors, heat shrink, wire etc and should be able to rewire the bike for £60. I'm planning on using either the spiral wrap, or braided wrap to cover the wiring rather than trying to wrap tape around it all. Still trying to get my head around the wiring diagrams, sometimes I think I've got it, then it just gets all confusing. The wort thing I'm finding is that horn, indicators, headlights and things are all shown going into the same black and white wire!
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Post by captain chaos on Jan 25, 2015 7:07:43 GMT
Black/White is ground on Suzukis.
Red is +12V, orange is switched +12V, orange/another colour is fused +12V. If you know this it's easy.
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