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Post by captain chaos on Jan 31, 2015 20:33:59 GMT
As far as I can see there's no power getting as far as the coils. The coils should get +12V all the time (with ignition on and kill switch on "run" of course). The two different colour wires (one on each coil) get a "signal" from the CDI unit to produce a spark.
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Post by arnout on Jan 31, 2015 22:40:49 GMT
Ah.. A wiring diagram, thanks.. Now we're talking.. As far as I can see there's no power getting as far as the coils. The coils should get +12V all the time (with ignition on and kill switch on "run" of course). The two different colour wires (one on each coil) get a "signal" from the CDI unit to produce a spark. Yup.. As I tried to explain before, the ignitor unit doesn't "send" the voltage to the coils.. In this case (most cases?) the coils are connected to the 12V from the battery/generator permanently -like CC says- if all switched are closed, that is a current runs through the coils all the time, except when the ignitor stops the current (triggered by the pickups) and the magnetic field inside the coils collapses and sparks are produced.. ..As far as I can see there's no power getting as far as the coils. On the wiring diagram it clearly shows the coils are connected (or should be) to O/W wires.. These are (always) the "power" wires of the ignition group.. If you cannot measure at least 12V on these wires something is wrong (with the switches or break in the wiring loom) that has nothing to do with the current condition of the ignition system.. For testing purposes only you can temporarily connect the O/W wires directly to the battery or any other 12V powersupply.. especially on makeshift looms.. Can't see anything in the haynes manual about being able to test the ignitor unit. Ah.. "Haynes".. Although my GSX1100-Haynes does describe such a test, these Haynes's are often a slimmed down version of a genuine Suzuki service manual..
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buelligan
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Posts: 33
Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Jan 31, 2015 23:20:14 GMT
I'll go back out and have another go tomorrow, I think I may have made a very basic error.... I followed the O/W wires along the wiring diagram, to the ignitor... I didn't look at the other way they went, up to the kill switch.
So tomorrow, I will connect a wire from positive terminal, to the O/W wires, and I assume they still also run to the ignitor. Then I will re-check for voltages under all the conditions I did today.
If the ignitor and pickups don't actually supply power, is there a way I can check they're working? I've checked the continuity on the wires, but that obviously still doesn't tell me if the pickups are actually picking up...
While this haynes manual for the GSX is far better than the 1 for the MG it's still not very in depth. For example the table for trouble shooting non-running has 5 things on it, all common sense things!
Ps. Thanks for the patience and continued help.
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Post by arnout on Feb 2, 2015 20:28:32 GMT
If the ignitor and pickups don't actually supply power, is there a way I can check they're working? I've checked the continuity on the wires, but that obviously still doesn't tell me if the pickups are actually picking up... As for testing the pickups ("signal generator").. These pickups are actually coils too, so their continuity and resistance can be tested and measured between the G/W and brown wires (B/W is ground and not doing much as far as I can judge?).. On the GSX1100 this is 250-360 Ohm, so on a GSX250 it probably is around those numbers too.. These coils generate a small temporarily current when the rotor on the crank passes by.. This results in a small voltage spike and is the "signal" that triggers the ignitor unit into action (rapidly switching off the 12V from the ignition coils).. I suppose this signal could be measured (both current and voltage) when the rotor or a steel object passes close to either coils, but the static resistance measurements should suffice really.. Right.. As for testing the ignitor unit.. The GSX1100 manual describes how the small voltage that the multimeter uses to measure resistance can be used to simulate the pickups.. ("put each probe on each wire and watch for a spark on one plug, disconnect probes and other plug should spark").. So to test the ignitor separated from the pickups.. The test has the condition though that it assumes the ignition coils are in operational state and uses the plugs too to produce sparks.. So if atm you're not even getting 12V to/at the coils this test obviously won't work anyway.. In theory the very quick switching off of the coil voltage by the ignitor should be something you could measure with a simulated 12V supply and on the separate ignitor alone, but I reckon this switching may occur too fast for the multimeter to register.. (I dunno, never tried it) Anyway.. First things first and get some juice to those ignition coils..!
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Post by arnout on Feb 2, 2015 21:24:05 GMT
Btw.. I downloaded myself a GSX250/400 Haynes copy, and found the ignition test procedure on page 119 (Chapter 3, paragraph 4) Maybe your manual has this page missing?
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buelligan
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Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
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Post by buelligan on Feb 8, 2015 20:29:37 GMT
Slow reply again, our house seems to be the centre of the plague at the moment... I have got page 119 in the book, thats where the coil test is, but I'd been looking in the index for specific things and didn't see it listed there. Anyway I read those 2 tests, and I can't get anything that the manual says I should.
Primary windings in the coils are ok, secondary aren't, the test for the ignition pick ups says they should be between 60 and 80, I get 132, tried the Ignition control unit check and that wasn't right.
At the moment I think I'll take a step back until the baby is born and I can guarantee a certain amount of time in the garage. But if the ignition pickups and the coils are knackered, then the bike may well get sold on as spares or repairs, or broken. Seen another model of suzuki I quite fancy, a VX800, or the wife likes the look of an Enfield.
Maybe spend a few weeks fixing the Buell and come back to the suzuki with a fresh head
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buelligan
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Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Feb 8, 2015 20:34:32 GMT
Oh 1 other thing, I've got a feeling years ago someone said to me about the possibility of converting the ignition system to points, needing more maintenance, but cheaper to buy parts and fix.
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Post by katana on Feb 9, 2015 0:05:28 GMT
Oh 1 other thing, I've got a feeling years ago someone said to me about the possibility of converting the ignition system to points, needing more maintenance, but cheaper to buy parts and fix. Noooooooo! That'll make it (even) more low tech than your Buell! smiley-shocked003
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buelligan
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Posts: 33
Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Feb 9, 2015 20:19:03 GMT
Oh 1 other thing, I've got a feeling years ago someone said to me about the possibility of converting the ignition system to points, needing more maintenance, but cheaper to buy parts and fix. Noooooooo! That'll make it (even) more low tech than your Buell! smiley-shocked003 *I must not bite, I must not bite* the old air cooled engine is the attraction of the buell, the fuel injection is very good too! Having looked at the price of a points system, that's off the cards too. So I think it'll be a case of finding a cheap, running donor bike and use the electrics, or scrap it and get something else to have a play with.
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Post by slim on Feb 9, 2015 21:04:34 GMT
If you do decide to scrap it I would consider taking off your hands at the right price
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buelligan
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Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Feb 10, 2015 7:03:52 GMT
If you do decide to scrap it I would consider taking off your hands at the right price
Let me know what the 'right price' would be... I'm going to make a decision by the end of the week, currently leaning towards scrapping and finding something thats running but cosmetically rough, to fix up.
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buelligan
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Posts: 33
Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Feb 15, 2015 1:05:53 GMT
Well it's been a hard decision, and I'll be sad to see it go, but with another baby being born any day now I really can't afford the price of parts for this bike, so it's going up for sale. Will sell either as a whole or if there's no interest after a couple of weeks I'll sell it off bit by bit. If I sell it through here I'll gladly make a donation to site running costs for all the help offered. Anyone interested for £110-130, or offers?
Hopefully in July I'll be getting a half decent bonus and will be able to look for another project then, either a VX800 for me, or if she's got any money to put towards it, an Enfield for my wife.
Thanks again for all the help, but I just can't justify the money and time on a bike that in all reality, I doubt I'd choose to ride over the Buell, (Rode the old dragstar to an MOT a few days ago and even being a 650 it still felt woefully underpowered for me)
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buelligan
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Posts: 33
Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Feb 26, 2015 23:47:55 GMT
Just wanted to say thanks again for the help offered, but I put the bike on Gumtree late last Sunday night, and it was paid for and collected by midday Monday. I was going to buy and old bike to fix up, but then found some old photos of another unfinished project (garage got broken into and most it stolen). So now I'm looking at a long term project, just need to find an engine that will give me the power I want, and looks right for the frame I want, and is a V twin or V4. Narrowed it down to a TL1000 or Vmax, but would rather avoid watercooling, or a Buell or tuned Sportster engine, simple air cooled, but not as much power as I'd like.
Anyway, thanks, and I may be back soon with something else suzuki,
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Post by captain chaos on Feb 27, 2015 8:02:16 GMT
I may be back soon with something else suzuki, You'd better be. Only aircooled Suzuki V-twin I can think of is the VS1400/VL1500 engine, actually it's oilcooled. I have no idea how much power they can make with some help. Yamaha MT01 can be quite fun with a little bit of tuning. If you want a chopper, the XV1600 has basically the same engine.
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buelligan
Velociraptor
Posts: 33
Bikes: Buell XB12R Firebolt, and GSX250 Hardtail Chop
Reg: Dec 29, 2014 0:46:49 GMT
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Post by buelligan on Feb 28, 2015 0:31:03 GMT
Thanks, I did look at the VS1400, but I do worry about the future cost and availability of spares for japanese bikes. The oil cooling isn't a problem as a Buell engine would have an oil coiler aswell, and if I was to tune a sportster, I'd probably fit 1 on there too. I do really want at 95bhp though, ideally I'd have about 110-120bhp. I did look at the MT01 as well, I liked them when they came out, and I think it's quite a nice looking engine, and the size of the cylinder would suit the image in my mind very well, but I think it's about 90bhp, the XV1600 is only 60bhp, and I haven't looked into it enough to find out what yamaha did to get the extra 30bhp. I'll try and get a some photos of the bike I want.
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